HWHAP Ep422 The Artemis Accords

HWHAP Ep422 The Artemis Accords Joseph Zakrzewski Houston We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center Episode 422: The Artemis Accords. I'm Joseph Zakrzewski, and I'll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. Humanity has an innate need to explore. For centuries, we have explored our planet, both land and sea. Then we went beyond the planet's surface to low Earth orbit. And then, just over 50 years ago, we went even further to explore the equatorial region of the moon with the Apollo program. Now the Artemis program is taking us back to the moon to explore the lunar South Pole, this time with international cooperation coupled with guiding principles to help support and sustain exploration, today and into the future. The Artemis Accords were established in 2020 as principles for a safe, peaceful, and prosperous future in space. Under the Accords, we will explore together, guided by the shared commitments. Joining me today, we have Kathleen Karika, the Administrator's Senior Advisor for International and Interagency Relations, and Kim Hurst, lead of the Artemis Accords for NASA from the Office of International and Interagency Relations, to tell us all about what that looks like. Let's get started. Joseph Zakrzewski Kathleen Kim, thank you so much for joining us on Houston We Have a Podcast today to talk all things Artemis Accords. But before we dive into that, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better and your roles at NASA, how you got started, and how that role impacts the Artemis Accords. Thank you for being here. Kathleen Karika Thank you so much, Joseph. Kim and I are so excited to be here. So just as you mentioned, I am the Senior Advisor to the NASA Administrator for all things International and Interagency. I've been in the space industry about 15 years. I'm from the KSC area originally, so although I tried to resist joining space, we just have such an incredible space industry and community that I wasn't able to cut loose into a different industry. So I've always done international I spent most of my career doing international business development, from geo-communication satellites to remote sensing, and then micro gravity research and human space flight sales. So NASA's, it's just a wonderful opportunity to come and support the nation and help us return to American Space superiority. As of earlier this week, I've been here just over a year, so it's been, it's been my absolute pleasure to work with incredible people at NASA like Kim and on the Artemis Accords in that amount of time. Kim? Kim Hurst Yeah, thank you Kathleen, and thank you Joseph for having us today. So, Kim Hurst, I work in the Office of International and interagency relations. I've been at NASA for about 10 years now, and I've had the pleasure of working and supporting almost every single mission directorate within NASA. So I started my time at NASA supporting Human Exploration and Operations. Then I moved over to our Science Mission Directorate, where I spent a lot of time focused on Earth Science. Then I went over to our aeronautics and research division, and now I find myself as NASA's lead for the Artemis Accords. And so really excited to have this opportunity today to talk a little bit about Artemis Accords, but also my second job is supporting NASA's Exploration Science Strategy and Integration Office, which houses our Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program. And you'll hear a little bit more about that when we talk today, because there's some opportunities out there for our Artemis Accords partners to contribute to the clips program. Joseph Zakrzewski Wonderful to hear those back stories. And it sounds like you have a wide ranging, multi hat experience over the time of your NASA career, which is impactful in these moments like Artemis and the Artemis Accords, and just the feedback we've seen from around the globe on recent events involving NASA certainly can tap into that. And let's go ahead and dive right in to the Artemis Accords. Let's start with the basics. First of all, how what are the Artemis Accords and how did they come about? Kathleen Karika Yeah, so the Accords were created in President Trump's first term. They are non-binding principles that we have an incredible group of as of today, 63 countries like minded countries that view exploration the same way that we've all agreed to. So as we look at how do we explore the universe, so especially as it relates to the Moon, but also Mars and beyond, what are those principles that we're taking with us in that similar viewpoint that we're taking as we explore? And I know we'll talk later about those specific 10 Principles, but we're so excited to see the incredible growth in the Accords, just in the in the little over five years that we've had them. And in that amount of time, when we launched the Accords towards the end of 2020, we hadn't even launched Artemis I yet, and so now in that amount of time, we've launched Artemis one, a hugely successful Artemis II mission, and now we're looking ahead to III, IV, V, Moon Base, CLPS landers, habitats, so many different areas to collaborate with those international partners. So we're thrilled to have 63 and there are many coming up. I know that Kim will speak too. Joseph Zakrzewski You mentioned the amount of countries, and it seems like in my time here at NASA, and for those that follow along on nasa.gov and the news feeds, there's more and more signing each and every day. So 63 and counting, going back to the original, I guess, establishment of the Artemis Accords in 2020 the first eight signatories that established what exploration in this century would look like off our world. Kind of walk us through how we started from that first point to now, 63 countries and counting, and how, and as you said, the excitement of how much it has grown since. Kathleen Karika Yeah, so we were really seeing an uptick in the amount of lunar missions from the US, but also our international partners, and saying, if all of us are going to be on the moon together, how do we make sure that we're not conflicting with one another, especially inadvertently conflicting. We wanted to make sure that we're exploring safely. And how do we increase communication between ourselves so that we're coordinated, and you'll see that too when we talk about transparency. So as we looked at the increase of lunar missions, NASA and our friends at the State Department really took on a leadership role for the international community and outlined these 10 Principles. We had eight countries in total, including the US that did the original signing and a lot of those countries are ones that we work with anyway. And as soon as we signed up, we had a number of other international partners that were eager to sign on, and then it's just been a steady drum beat since then, we have again, been really pleased with the support that we've had from around the world. So we've got partners from South America, North America, Europe, the Middle East, Australia. I don't want to steal Kim's thunder on all of the good outreach that she's been doing, but I will tell you that poor Kim has two very full time jobs because the Accords keeps her very busy on all of the countries that want to talk to her and sign up and join all of us as we explore the Moon. Joseph Zakrzewski Well, and Kim I'll go to you on this one too, just because of recent events that have happened with NASA and the Artemis II mission that is completed as of this recording, there's been a lot of buzz and a lot of excitement, and a lot of people invested in space, whether low Earth orbit or beyond. You mentioned that you have, you know, a lot going on and a lot on your plate, two very full time jobs. How has that excitement spearheaded more interest in the Artemis Accords? And how can my agency, how can my country, become involved and learn more building off of what we've been fortunate enough to see with the Artemis missions. Kim Hurst Yeah, as Kathleen mentioned, we had a signing ceremony this morning, which marked 63 for us, and we've got one next week, two the following week, and then more to come. And so it's been really exciting for us, especially having our administrator, Jared Isaacman, on board now and having him participate in these signing ceremonies. I think it shows that the Artemis Accords, you know, are important, continue to be important. They bring our international partners into the coalition of what we're trying to achieve here with exploration in the future, and I'm quite proud of the growth that we've had with the Artemis Accords over the last five years. I used to say that the Artemis Accords aren't about the numbers, but man, do numbers tell a compelling story, and they're not symbolic alone. It translates into influence. A coalition this this large, sets precedents and defines standards and shapes expectations. And the Accords aren't just a diplomatic achievement. They're a strategic asset to the United States and NASA and so I love that we have more countries approaching us all the time. We also are approaching countries that are really important and critical to us, especially nations that have lunar programs. And I think that, you know, I'm not a betting person, but I think we're going to get over 70 this year, and I look forward to that. Kathleen Karika Yeah, can I maybe add that the country that we had signed today was Jordan, and then just on Monday of this week, we had Latvia sign. And what's really exciting too, is we work on those signing ceremonies that Kim so diligently sets up in partnership with the State Department, is Where did the countries want to sign? So a lot of them want to sign at NASA headquarters, but they also want to sign back at their home countries, because this is a huge rallying point for them as a nation. So whether or not a country has a space agency or does not have a space agency, they've been interested in riding the waves of the success of the Artemis II mission. We've heard from our international partners. It's now a little bit easier to explain why is it important to go the moon. We've now seen people go around the Moon, and that's so addressable and accessible for all of us. And so we coordinate with them really closely on social media and all of our communications. How do we help them amplify the importance of space and the exploration of space back to their taxpayers, just like NASA does all the time, to the US taxpayer. Joseph Zakrzewski And it taps into, I know we're talking with, you know, talking about countries and agencies that are that are interested in signing on board, but it kind of feeds the global curiosity and that innate need to want to explore and want to know more. And I know that's something that we've heard a lot about in recent missions and recent and recent press conferences and signing announcements is, is that it is, it is a curiosity that that spans across the globe, and that's incredibly exciting. And Kim to your point too, when you started with those initial eight and then you mentioned the the timeline of events and more and more signing, I always enjoy seeing the backgrounds and the backdrops of the different countries and the flags and those graphics that keep adding more and more and more to it. It's a phenomenal mix of colors and excitement of knowing all these nations participating in these Accords. Now, NASA partnered with the State Department on this effort, correct? And if that's the case, how did that come about? To help set foundations and have that partnership to build what's now been, you know, 63 countries and counting. Kim Hurst Yeah, so back in 2020 when NASA conceived of the Artemis Accords, we knew very early on that we would want help from the Department of State, and that partnership has been essential. I like to say that our diplomats overseas are really the boots on the ground, and they're helping to open doors and helping countries understand not just what the Artemis Accords are, but what the benefits are for them to join, even if they don't have a space nation. NASA, we work with over 160 countries, and we have connections and relationships with a lot of nations, but they're not always active, and so the State Department has been critical for opening those doors. And so between NASA's technical leadership and State Department's diplomatic reach, we've really created this global movement, and together, we're reshaping how we explore space and beyond. So really, really thrilled to have my colleagues at Department of State so work closely with us on this effort. Kathleen Karika Now maybe I’ll just add that we've got great support from the White House too. On the Artemis Accords, President Trump was going to the ASEAN summit last fall which is the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, led by Director Kratsios, was so supportive of wanting to have the Artemis Accords be a deliverable for President Trump while he went participated in that important summit. So Kim and I were at the White House quite frequently in the lead up doing meetings with our international partners, and we were thrilled to have Malaysia and the Philippines sign on the sidelines of the ASEAN Summit. So it's been wonderful to see the interagency support, especially one of the signings that we've got coming up here in two weeks. I was just at the White House earlier today, and I said, are you ever going to come to one of our signings? They go, well, who's next? We told them, oh, we'll be there. Absolutely, we’ll be there. So the support all the way around is fantastic. And we're, we're very lucky to have great partners at the State Department. Partners in crime on this one. Crime for good. Joseph Zakrzewski Absolutely! Well, and it's fun to see just the excitement, the excitement in your voice, the excitement hearing, you know, other departments, the White House, everyone involved, and, of course, the country's involved too. I mean, that just feeds the momentum of what's being built here with the Artemis Accords. And with that, we kind of teased it in a little bit of the beginning. But there's a lot of facets to the Artemis Accords and what's involved and how things can shape up. Can you tell us a little bit about the facets and those purposes of the Artemis Accords and the outlines that they provide? Kim Hurst Sure, I'll start. So I just want to you know note that these principles are practical guidelines intended to increase safety and reduce risk in our missions. And we were very intentional early on that when we drafted them, that they were drafted at a high level, because we wanted them to be as compelling as possible to all nations, and really is a starting point for discussions. So if you read the text of the Artemis Accords, which I hope everyone who listens to this has the opportunity to do so, they are very short, and so it is a quick read. And so to elaborate a little bit more. We can start at the first principle, which is, frankly, the most simple: for peaceful purposes. And it's the notion that the Artemis Accords are for civil space activities only. So NASA, from its start, exclusively engages in only civil matters. But we recognize not all of our partner space agencies draw such a hard line. So the Artemis Accords apply to only civil space activities of the signatories. Kathleen Karika Yeah, maybe I can follow on with the next one, which is transparency. So transparency is so important to the US as a country. And just as Kim noted, a lot of these principles, or most of them, are things that NASA was already doing, and so we're happy to share these best practices with our international partners and for them to sign on to explore the same way that we were planning to explore. And so transparency is definitely at the core of that. So it's important to NASA, as we lay out our lunar missions, we share that with the public. We're excited for it, but also they pay for it. So how are we exploring? Where are we going? When are we going? What is going to be on those missions? We communicate all of that very clearly to the US public, but also to the international community to make sure that we're not interfering with one another. So that's one of the principles. It's one of my favorites, as Kim very well knows. I think it's really important, and it's a principle that we wish more countries would take on board, because we don't want to interfere with one another. We want to make sure that we're able to execute these successful missions and are bumping into each other on the moon. So transparency is critical for that. Kim Hurst And I'll just add also, you know, you shouldn't pick favorites, but transparency is also one of my favorites for all the reasons Kathleen said. But I also want to note that we aspire to be more transparent in the work we do of the Artemis Accords. You know the NASA website, we post that flag graphic that you talk about every time we have a new signatory, so you can see who all has committed to these principles of the Artemis Accords. On the NASA website, we also have our method of operation, which outlines how that we as a community work together to, you know, better, define these principles of the Artemis Accords. And so really, transparency is the core of everything we do. And you'll see that as we talk through these individual principles, where transparency is kind of an umbrella term for all of these principles. Kathleen Karika Yeah, and transparency flows really nicely, I think, into the next one, which is interoperability. So as we start to take the principles and apply them to real programs, interoperability is key. So as we're building out a moon base, which we'll talk about later, how do we make sure that our sister, our systems, are compatible with one another? And so NASA publishes users guides for the ISS, for example, and interoperability standards, and we're going to do the same thing, and have been working on the same thing for the Moon. So how do our systems connect? How if we have a communications network supporting the astronauts on the lunar surface, if our international partners also want to contribute a communication system, how do we make sure that those systems talk to one another? Interoperability is going to be so important. We're thoughtful, too, in the timelines of when we roll out the interoperability standards. We don't want to tell everybody we're all going to be using this channel, and then we get down the road, it's maturing, you go, oh, actually, we should have picked a different option. So there's a lot of forethought that goes into the interoperability piece, so we don't have everybody changing their designs rapidly as we iterate. But as soon as we're ready to roll out interoperability standards for all of our partners on the moon. We're excited to do it. That also goes along with the next topic, which is emergency assistance. So I always think of the movie Gravity when I think of emergency assistance. Essentially, it says, if we have an astronaut who is stranded, we are going to help them get back to Earth safely and get back home. It's the same thing that the US does to support on Earth. We're making sure that everybody is safe, and if we have an astronaut that is in a bad situation that all of the Accords partners have agreed that we're going to help return them back home to Earth. Kim, do you maybe want to talk about registration of space objects next? Kim Hurst Sure. So, registration of space objects really is just a reference to one of the International Space treaties known as the registration convention, and it simply is, you know, if we don't properly register then trying to coordinate to avoid interference, just simply cannot take place. So all of the Artemis accord signatories are committing to register their spacecraft. It also leads nicely into scientific data. You know, at the end of the day, everything we do, we want to have scientific return on this. And the release of scientific data really is another best practice that helps, helps to demonstrate transparency, and we are all committed to releasing our scientific data publicly. This is really a good example of where NASA shines. I believe we are the first space agency to ever release all of our mission data openly and publicly, and to do it quickly, because time matters here. If you wait too long to release that data, then it's not as useful if you release it right away. And the US government has recently doubled down on this practice last year when they released an executive order on gold standard science. And so we are continuing to commit to releasing our data, whether that's earth science data, whether that is planetary data, whether that is lunar data, it is open for the entire world to use. Kathleen Karika Yeah, the scientific data one, I think, complements the transparency one really nicely. So again, although there are 10 distinct principles, they really do flow well, back and forth. So the next one is preserving outer space heritage, which I think always goes nicely with the registration of space objects too. So essentially, we have had some incredible accomplishments on the Moon. The Apollo mission over 50 years ago, we want to make sure that we're protecting those heritage sites. But really, this doesn't apply just to the US. It also applies to our Indian colleagues on Chandrayaan-3, and also Japan, with their SLIM [Smart Lander for Investigating the Moon] mission. As we have more and more countries that are joining us on the moon, they're going to have their firsts on the lunar surface, and we want to make sure that those are protected. One of the things that we're looking at is we increase the pace of these Artemis missions, so we're going to have more of our international partners physically walking with us. Their astronauts with us on the lunar surface, and we want to protect those sites for posterity. And so this is this one always warmed my heart. I like this principle. So then we get into space resources. Space resources is such an exciting topic, especially as we look towards the future of what we're going to do on the moon. So there's a lot of conversation about mining on the Moon. What are those resources? How do we commercialize? I know we'll talk later about the how do our commercial partners interact under the Accords? But the space resources piece really enables a lot of that commercial partnership. So we have a great partner in Luxembourg that, frankly, has just been leading the world on their space resources policy. So we're happy to have this tenant or this principle in the Accords that really enables the future of commercial potential, on on the Moon, but also as we look towards other bodies. Kim Hurst So we're talking through these principles as they are ordered in the text of the Artemis Accords. But if I had any control, I would have put this next one right after transparency, which is deconfliction of space activities, or what we also refer to as non-interference. And really this was the genesis for us creating the Artemis Accords. It goes back to the fact that we recognized there were a lot of, whether it was space agencies, commercial companies, headed to the Moon. And we needed to have a way that we could coordinate amongst the other nations that were going. And so with non-interference or de confliction of space activities, this is taking a useful step forward for implementing the Outer Space Treaty notion of states owing one another due regard. And what that really means is, you know, if there's a situation of where two parties are going to be going to the moon at the same time in the same region, the commitment is that, you know, one party will notify and consult with the other party. And we help to achieve this goal by introducing a term that's called a safety zone. And really what that is, is you know, you say that you have an area that you're going to we're going to use it, and then we're going to terminate that use once our science is done there. So safety zones, you know, we still have some work to do on what that looks like in the future, but at the end of the day, it's just committing to consult and notify one another. And so this goes back to transparency. I will always add transparency in anything I do, and it's for us to share with the world where you are going, what you are doing, and enough information about your planned operations that others with it with similar interest might better be able to predetermine the potential for interference between both missions. And this is one of the areas that the Artemis accord signatories together have made great progress on. A few years ago, through discussions we've had, we identified a list of mission data parameters that we thought would be really important for us to post publicly so people would know where you are going. And so once we established those mission data parameters, we have since then posted them to a United Nations website, and anyone in the world can see where we are going, information about our lander, information about the location. And so we're quite proud that through transparency, through discussions, through negotiations, that we are sharing with the world- not only the US, but as Kathleen mentioned, we've had other Artemis accord signatories go to the Moon, and they're also posting that information publicly. So I think that's a huge accomplishment of this group in such a short period of time. Kathleen Karika And then I'll maybe just round us out with the last one, which is orbital debris. So orbital debris is a really important challenge that we deal with around the Earth. We could have large pieces of orbital debris, old rocket bodies, all the way down to really small pieces of orbital debris, and we have to track all of those to make sure that we're not going to have a collision with one of our important satellites, or our commercial partners are not going to have a collision. And we want to make sure that we're being thoughtful now, as we start to explore the Moon, we don't want to leave it littered. Be thoughtful of what we're putting on the Moon, but also what we're putting around the Moon. So we are all committed to being thoughtful about orbital debris around the Moon, around Mars, other bodies, just as we are on earth. And as Kim mentioned, I mean, this one goes along with a lot of the International conversations that we have in other fora too. Being thoughtful of of orbital debris is really important, and that's it. That's all ten. Kim Hurst That's all the ten principles. Yeah. Joseph Zakrzewski Thank you. And again, I highly encourage those tuned in, and for those interested in the Artemis Accords, or wanting to learn more about it, to really dive in and learn more on NASA's websites. And you touched upon a couple of different things that was going to lead me into my next question too, is there's the Artemis Accords, but there's also space treaties, like the Outer Space Treaty. You mentioned the Registration Convention, the Rescue and Return Agreement. How does the Artemis Accords find its home within treaties and other established documentation that that has been created? Kim Hurst That's a great question, and I get the question all the time from nations who are interested in the Artemis Accords. So Kathleen already mentioned earlier, the Artemis Accords are not legally binding. And you know, when we started to draft the Artemis Accords, it was important that we drafted them so that way they're grounded in the Outer Space Treaty. So that means they're fully consistent with existing treaties, and in many retrospects, the Accords help to ground or operationalize important elements of International Space Law driven by NASA's global leadership in space exploration. So the 1967 Outer Space Treaty is the primary international legal instrument governing activities in outer space, and sets the framework for exploration and use of outer space. So consistent with long standing US policy, the Outer Space Treaty emphasizes that outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all states. The Outer Space Treaty framework has long facilitated NASA's working relationship with global partners and ensures that all signatories abide by common legal principles. And so the Accords provide implementation guidance for the Outer Space Treaty and also reinforce obligations under the registration convention and the agreement on rescue of astronauts. Kathleen Karika So just as Kim said in the beginning, the number of countries that sign is not necessarily what is most important to us. What's most important is that we all view how we explore from the same perspective that said, we love how big the numbers are, and the amount of countries that have signed becomes really significant when you start to look at UN COPUOS The UN Committee On the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, which is the gathering of countries that have signed the Outer Space Treaty. As of- well, the number continues to grow, but let's say, for some time now, we have been over 50% of the countries that have signed the Outer Space Treaty have also signed on to the Artemis Accords. So when we gather in these international fora, and especially in Vienna, at UN COPUOS we actually meet as an Artemis Accords group ahead of time, because we have such similar perspectives. So when we go into these larger fora we are able to coordinate on. Yes, we really do think that this principle is important for exploring the moon or no, we really do want to look at it from this spectrum perspective. So, and I would be remiss if I did not give a shout out to our German friends who are always so kind of wrangle us ahead of UN COPUOS. But, and frankly, that in itself, is a good example of although the US, you know, took the first pen on this, we have incredible partners across the globe who are really digging in on what are these additional details as we go through those ten principles, or what does it really mean to be like minded, and so for the Germans to take on the charge of making sure that we're gathered before UN COPUOUS and other major international discussions like that is so helpful, and it shows that we are all invested. Everybody who signed on to the Accords is invested in looking at it from this perspective, not just the US. Joseph Zakrzewski Well, now that leads us into another topic that I really want to get into is, how are these Artemis Accords being applied the principles that you just outlined for us. Can you give us some examples and methods that are occurring as we speak of how these Accords are currently laying the groundwork for this exploration? Kim Hurst So let me start with you know, NASA has long applied these principles. It's the way we've always done business. But now we have 62 other nations who have committed to the guidelines of safe, responsible and transparent exploration. And what we've learned is this community is incredibly passionate about further defining and implementing the principles. And so we've had to find a way that we can get together and work through to be able to apply the principles. And so we meet once a year at a working level for our workshop to discuss the principles and where we can make progress and recommendations that we can tee up for our space agency head or heads or ministers. And so next month, Peru will host the fourth annual workshop, and it's been really great to work with CONIDA, who is Peru's national space agency, on the planning for this workshop. They've really brought forth some neat ideas, and I'm excited to participate in the discussions next month and see where, see where it will take us. I referenced the principles, so we meet once a year at a principal level on the margins of the International Astronautical Congress, which typically takes place in the fall. And that's an opportunity for our heads of space agencies or ministers to be able to adopt some of the recommendations that the working level team have brought together. NASA has co-chaired that meeting from the start, and we typically have rotating heads of two other space agencies who support co-chairing that meeting as well. One area that I do want to highlight about applying the principles is that, you know, we recognize not all Artemis Accords signatories have the technical knowledge to engage in these discussions and to apply the principles. And so something NASA has established is a cadence of offering technical presentations for the Artemis Accords communities to ensure that these policy discussions that we are having are informed by sound scientific and technical technological expertise. And so these briefings give the signatories the factual foundation they need in order to evaluate issues, align approaches and make well supported decisions. And so we're continuing to morph what the community of the Artemis Accords look like, especially as we grow larger and larger. But these are just some of the areas of how that we are putting the Artemis Accords into practice. Joseph Zakrzewski Well, you signed me up perfectly for what I want to talk to you next is putting the Artemis Accords into action. You gave some great examples of other missions that have gone to the Moon with other countries. What does applying these principles look like when put into action? And what does this practice look like? Kathleen Karika We I love this question, and as Kim knows I love this question, I will reveal something about Kim. So when I started in this role about a year ago, I said, How do we make the Accords meatier like we want? We want real, tangible programs behind them. And first I had to clarify that by “meatier,” I didn't mean like the space object, you know, we meant like things with more meat on the bone. And then Kim notified me that she was a vegetarian. And so then I really had to look at different terms. So we've, we've massaged it over time, and especially once the Administrator came on board. You know, this really aligns with his vision, too, because we are all so proud of the huge success of the Accords. So in the last month, can't believe it was a month ago, but in the last month, we had an incredible event at NASA headquarters, which was the Ignition event, where the administrator laid out, what does our plan for exploration for the next handful of years, and really NASA's future look like? And so with that, and I'll walk through some of the things that were included in the ignition event, but most significantly was we now have a real, tangible program to apply the Accords principles to. So we're taking the Accords principles and putting them into practice, and we're so proud of that development of the principles. So at the Ignition event, we rolled out an update to the Artemis architecture. So instead of flying Artemis II and then waiting three years to fly Artemis III, and in that amount of time, making a gigantic leap, no pun intended, straight to the lunar surface from that first mission, we decided that we want to do more missions in between, to really burn down risk and make sure that we've got the highest chance of success. So that's where we announced that Artemis III will now become a mission that flies in Earth orbit, and then Artemis IV will go to the lunar surface, and hopefully, very quickly, followed by Artemis V, and then VI, VII, Artemis XX, the Administrator says, I want to make sure we're thinking about what does Artemis 100 look like, and how do we have the longevity of A program that really for generations, Americans and the rest of the world are going to see astronauts on the lunar surface. So with that kind of leads into a second big piece of ignition, which is the moon base. And that's really where we see the opportunities for our international partners thriving. There's, we have tons of opportunities for our Artemis partners, but especially on the Moon Base. So, and this was the moon base was directed for NASA to do it out of President Trump's ensuring American Space Superiority executive order that was signed in December on the same day that Administrator Isaacman started, actually, and it says that NASA will have the initial pieces of a moon base by 2030. And if anybody's been following along, we are not waiting to do anything at NASA right now. We're going as fast as we can. So we took that 2030 timeline and said we're going to start building moon base even faster. So we'll start- we'll build out the moon base in three phases, but we'll start the first phase early next year, and that's with our CLPS program that Kim mentioned earlier. So we're going to be launching missions to the moon through CLPS about once a month, and we're going to do that for about three years. And so the amount of opportunities to fly payloads to the lunar surface is more than the US could ever satisfy by ourselves. So that means that we have tons of opportunities for our international partners to also put instruments, put technology development, put whatever payloads you think that your country is best suited to provide, and let us help you fly it to the lunar surface. And so what that's about is getting as much hardware on the lunar surface as fast as we can, so we can learn faster, and you have that quicker development cycle, because we're launching, we're testing, we're launching, we're testing, and all of that builds us up to phase two of the moon base, starting in about 2029 where we're start to build out our semi-permanent presence. So now we're looking at, what does the communication system look like around the Moon? What does the navigation system look like around the Moon? And with that comes our international partners, of course, in phase two, we're excited for Japan's pressurized rover to land. That is just going to be an incredible sight. And if you're not familiar with Japan's pressurized rover, it's basically a mini habitat on its own. So pressurized mean that the astronauts don't need to wear their space suits on the inside, and they can be inside the rover, conducting science and exploring even further across the lunar surface. So then we'll get to phase three, where we start to see the permanent pieces of the habit of the Moon Base. And with that comes the habitat. We recently signed a joint statement of intent with the Italians. They're looking at doing a habitat module based on their great experience building other modules like for the ISS. And then we're going to have other additions from international partners, and those negotiations are ongoing, and we're excited about it, but think rovers and how do we move tons of- literally tons of cargo on the lunar surface, and how do we communicate back and forth? What does the power look like? Is it nuclear? Is it solar power? What does the battery systems look like? So NASA is hard at work defining what that Moon Base architecture looks like, but with it also, what are those contributions from our international partners? We have an RFI or Request For Information out right now, and we just extended the due date to May 7 for anybody really to propose countries, companies, international partners, universities, to propose, what are some of those scientific instruments that they would like to take to the lunar surface, so that that's still open. And at the same time, our office, the Office of International and Interagency Relations has gone to our Artemis Accord signatories and said, Hey, if you've got other ideas on things that you want to fly in the Moon, maybe it's space food, and you've got a great dish that you think that the astronauts should be eating as they explore. What about seeds? What about a camera that people and students could task remotely on the lunar surface. We want all of those good ideas, so send them to us, and we're going to process them and do our best to get them involved in those long term Moon Base plans. But then again, bringing all this back to the Accords, how do we register those space objects that we're talking about? How do we deconflict those space activities that we're talking about, we're going to have tons of space heritage that comes out of this. How do we protect those sites’ interoperability, like we talked about comm systems. How do we make sure those comm systems communicate back and forth? So that's how interwoven now the Accords have become with NASA's future space plans, and we are just so excited to have our Artemis Accords partners with us as we build out the moon base. Joseph Zakrzewski I'm just as excited as you are hearing you list out the timeline. I can see the calendar in front of me of what's to come on the lunar surface. And again, it's beyond an exciting time at NASA and for all the Artemis Accords partnerships. Now I'm going to zoom out a little bit. And get your thoughts on this one. We've talked a lot about the infrastructure and the mission supporting trips to the moon. How do the Artemis Accords support going even further, say, to Mars, how does, how is that implemented, and would additional draft language or agreements need to be created or added to, to support this? Kim Hurst Yeah, so the title of the Artemis Accords are for the use of Moon, Mars, comets, and asteroids. So all the work we're doing should be applicable to Mars and beyond. We recognize that our current focus has been on the Moon, because that is where we are going, and that is where a lot of people are going right now, but the goal is to be able to apply all the lessons learned to Mars and beyond as well. Kathleen Karika Yeah, and we even have some great international partners that have already started exploring Mars. Quite, quite a few actually. But I always think of the the Emirati hope mission around Mars, and they're planning missions to the asteroid belt. And so just as Kim said, I mean, the opportunities for our international partners to explore other bodies and explore aligned with the Accords are incredibly numerous. So we're excited for us to take the principles with us as we go to other destinations, but also our international partners will do the same. Joseph Zakrzewski So as the list continues to grow of those international partners to the Artemis Accords, we've teased it a little bit here and there, but there's also been a lot of commercial space and commercial space activations. How does the Artemis Accords support those endeavors, and where and how does the industry interest in pursuing greater exploration goals play a role here? Kathleen Karika Yeah, it's a great question, and one that we get a lot. And you know, the entities that sign up to the Artemis Accords are countries, so we don't have companies signing up to the Accords. But we certainly know, at least on the US side, they keep such a close eye on the Accords, and they really see it as just an area for opportunity. So one again is we're taking the Accords and applying them to a program. Our industry partners are going to be with us as we explore the Moon, just as the Administrator always says, We are not going to be exploring alone, we're taking our industry partners with us, and they're going to have huge contributions. For example, Japan, of course, has partnered with Toyota on the pressurized rover. The CLPS missions. NASA doesn't build those CLPS missions. The first word is the key commercial. It's our commercial partners in the US and and around the world that are building those Landers. So we see the Accords as something that helps enable on the commercial side. So one is we applied into practice. But then also just the Accords themselves. We talked about the space resources piece. We have incredible companies in the US that are looking at opportunities for helium-3 mining, for example, water mining. How do you take the resources that are on the Moon or Mars or an asteroid and make that into propellant? So there's tons of opportunity there. And I would also say the Accords also create it sparks a fire within some of these countries that maybe don't have a space agency. I was just talking to one of our international partners, and they said, look, we've got a couple different ministries that touch on space, but we don't have a space agency yet. But now that we've got the momentum from Artemis II, and we're starting to see the uptick in our industry, and they can now see how do, how can they contribute something on the Moon? We really think that it's time that we we wrangle ourselves and create a space agency. And every country has to make their own decision on what's best for them as they handle space. But that was a really exciting thing to hear, that they see the momentum from their international partnerships, but also the push from their industry and from their academic institutions that are saying, “Hey, we see a goal in sight. We now have the framework here through the principles. We want to really ramp up, and we think that there's more that we can contribute to the Moon and Mars and these other destinations. Can our government please help us get all of our ourselves organized and start, you know, financially supporting to the exploration of the Moon.” So commercial is is a very important partner with us on the Accords. Even if it's not a formal partner, they’re certainly stakeholders that we have in mind as we look at the the application of the Accords. And also, sorry, I should just point out, as it relates to interoperability, again, of course, a huge piece there for the commercial side, they build so many of our systems that go on to the Moon. So as we write down those interfaces that then has impacts into commercial. And we never want to over regulate them. So that's another piece that we have in mind. As we build out interoperability, we want the systems to work but not overly constrain commercial at the same time. So they're on our minds frequently as we're working Accords issues. Joseph Zakrzewski Well, you can certainly see the momentum building. And I know we led the podcast off with that, with that, with the amount of countries that have signed on, and you mentioned 63 and counting, and it sounds like your calendar invites are going to be pretty loaded up here for the next couple of weeks and beyond. But before I let you go, and I want to kind of keep this momentum moving forward, especially those that you're you have such a firm grasp of the Artemis Accords, where they started, where they're going and and how they've how they've been accomplished so far. What legacy do you think the Accords will leave for future explorations You teased? You know we need to look at what Artemis 100 is going to look like, but I can only imagine what the Artemis Accords, umbrelling, over, over top of all of those missions, will look like. But I would love to know your thoughts on on what the future of exploration and what it means for the Artemis Accords may look like. Kim Hurst Sure. So I think about this all the time. I think about, you know, what is the North Star and what is the success of the Artemis Accords, especially as you go from eight to sixty-three and growing, you know? I hope that the legacy of the Accords will be remembered as the moment that we chose to explore together and do so responsibly. You know, we've created this growing coalition of where experts, space agency heads, working level, can speak openly that we can talk about the hard challenges of space exploration, and that we can have an honest dialog. And that we're taking these values and turning them into practice and proving that cooperation is not just an ideal, but it's a way of working. And so I really hope that, you know, we are creating a foundation for future generations, that can built upon. Kathleen Karika Yeah, I'd say from the the legacy side, we're so grateful for the continuity of the Accords over time, from changing administrations, from within the US and also our international partners. So just as I mentioned, I mean, created in the first Trump administration, huge growth during the last administration, and now we have the incredible leadership from administrator Isaacman with the Moon Base and that long term exploration plan, and his support for helping us grow the Accords. He's been at two signings now, I know we'll have more in the future, and I expect that administrations after us will continue this legacy too. So we've seen incredible staying power, and just as Kim said, these are all values that we, really resonate with us as Americans. Transparency, so important, interoperability, how do we work with each other? And that explorer spirit, Joseph that you started us off with, I mean, that's how this country was founded, because we went and explored a new world, and that's really what it's about for the Moon too. We're exploring a new world and bringing our friends with us, and it's a very powerful thing, and we're we're honored to be associated with it. Joseph Zakrzewski Kathleen and Kim, before I let you go, is there anything else you would like to share with us? And again, thank you so much for joining us today. Kim Hurst Yes, so I'll just say, if there's any nations listening today who are not yet part of the Artemis Accords, I welcome the opportunity to talk to you, to answer your questions and to share more about what this community is building together. So if you've heard something that sparks your interest, let's have a conversation. Kathleen Karika And I'll add, we had a really nice event with our international partners at the five year anniversary of the Artemis Accords, and we had a the flag graphic on it of all of the countries who have signed. And it was a big cake, but I know we would love to see that cake when we get to the sixth anniversary, even larger with even more flags. So we're on track to do it this year, but we want to bring everybody that views exploration the same way that we do and holds the same values that we have, joining with us on the moon and as we explore Mars and other destinations. So I promise, Kim is very friendly, and she would love to talk to you about all of the capabilities that we have available to accord signatories. So we're excited to see a bigger cake here very soon. Joseph Zakrzewski I hope you saved me a piece. Thank you very much for joining us on Houston we have a podcast. Kathleen Karika Thank you. Joseph Zakrzewski Thanks for sticking around. I hope you learned something new today. You can check out the latest from around the agency at nasa.gov, and you can find out more about the Artemis Accords at nasa.gov/artemis-accords. Our full collection of episodes and other wonderful NASA Podcasts can be found at nasa.gov/podcasts. On social media. We're on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, X, and Instagram. If you have any questions for us or suggestions for future episodes, email us at nasa-houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov. This interview was recorded on April 23, 2026. Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill. And our social media is managed by Leah Cheshier and Kelcie Howren. Houston We Have a Podcast was created and is supervised by Gary Jordan. Special thanks to James Gannon, Laura Bleacher, and Elizabeth Shaw for helping us plan and set up these interviews. And of course, thanks again to Kathleen Karika and Kim Hurst for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on, and tell us what you think of our podcast. We'll be back next week. 3… 2… 1… This is an official NASA podcast.