Ep414_Science_In_Space

HWHAP_Science In Space Kenna Pell Houston We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 414: Science in Space. I'm Kenna Pell, and I'll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers and astronauts, all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. It's no secret that space can offer a unique perspective for researchers, but what exactly that unique perspective is, sometimes is hard to grasp when it comes to biological and physical phenomena. The microgravity environment, and sometimes lunar or Martian environment, can offer a new perspective on observations that help us understand whole segments of science. On this episode, we have Dr. Lisa Carnell, division director for NASA's Biological and Physical Sciences. She's here to help break down her side of the agency's science portfolio. Prior to her current position, Lisa has held a variety of roles inside and outside NASA. She worked on technology transfer NASA patents, served as Space Radiation medical countermeasure lead, and served in Biological and Physical Sciences as a Program Scientist for translational research. The PhD from Duke University holds eight patents, has authored or co-authored several peer reviewed journal articles, and has been honored with a number of prestigious NASA awards. I felt very fortunate to get a chance to speak with her. With that, here's Dr. Lisa Carnell on biological and physical sciences at NASA. Enjoy. <Intro Music> Kenna Pell Lisa, thanks for joining us on Houston We Have a Podcast today. Lisa Carnell Well, thank you so much for having me. Kenna Pell So in the show intro, I discussed a few of your previous roles and accomplishments, but wanted to rewind a little bit earlier to learn a little bit more about you. Can you tell our listeners where you grew up and what led you into the science field? Lisa Carnell Sure, I grew up actually in Fort Dodge, Iowa, a very small town just north of Des Moines, and, you know, literally worked the corn fields- Kenna Pell That is so Iowa! I love it! Lisa Carnell -every summer detasseling to earn money for school clothes and, you know, just incredibly, incredibly valuable environment. Kenna Pell Yeah, did you go to school in Iowa? Did you stay? Lisa Carnell No, my family moved to Virginia while I was still in high school. So I finished there, and then I moved out to Virginia and ended up going to college in Virginia. So I did my undergraduate at Old Dominion University. Kenna Pell Did you? Lisa Carnell Yeah! Kenna Pell It's close to Langley, right? Lisa Carnell Yeah, it is. It's close to NASA Langley. Small school there, allowed me to be at home and, you know, kind of go back and forth. Kenna Pell I love that. Were you military? Was your family military or… Lisa Carnell No, believe it or not, I was literally and figuratively the first off the farm. So nobody had gone to college in my family, and my dad was in construction, and there was only so much construction you can do in a small town, and the times were tough. So he moved out to Virginia, where some of my family was and got a job. It was booming, you know, tons of construction going on. So then he moved the family out, and that's now what I call home. Kenna Pell What did you go to school for at Old Dominion? Lisa Carnell Oh, so it's interesting, when I was growing up, I didn't know what I wanted to be. You know, you look back at people's yearbooks and they say, oh, I want to be an accountant or I want to be an astronaut. Kenna Pell It’s like, how did they know? Lisa Carnell Yeah, and mine was blank. I mean, I didn't know. I was really fascinated within with inventions, and I thought, I want to be an inventor somehow. And I'll be honest, I didn't even know what that was. So I went to the public library and would research in books and, like, try to understand how to what kind of career that was, and led me to engineering. And so when I walked into Old Dominion and signed up, I said, Well, I think I want to be an engineer. I'm not sure. And they're like, Well, you did well in high school. Let's just put you in there and see where we go. So I studied mechanical engineering. Kenna Pell Got it. Okay, did you What led you to where you are today? I know that's a loaded question, right? Because talking about all of your previous roles, but was there something when you were studying mechanical engineering that sparked your interest in space? Lisa Carnell Yes, so it's so it was incredibly organic. The whole process I graduated. I had done a co-op with NAVSEA, and I got to go work on military ships. I was helping to guide troubleshooting for gas turbine engines and steam turbine engines and, you know, literally went on the ships and told them how to fix. Them. So this was long before females were even on ships. So it was a very different environment. I decided I didn't really love that, and I wanted to do something different. And I was really fascinated with the human body. And I thought this is an incredible engineering marvel. It has everything. So I asked around, what can I do that has to do with, you know, the human body itself, and engineering biomedical wasn't very popular at the time, and so I created a program at Old Dominion and got my master's and did, kind of merged, like the kinesiology department with the engineering department, and I literally went and knocked on doors of doctor's offices and said, help me figure out a problem that you need solved. And I worked with this, with this orthopedic surgeon in Virginia Beach. He was prominent in his field. He let me stand with him in surgeries, and basically said, Hey, we need to find a replacement for this polymer material that's the bearing. It just keeps falling apart. So I said, That's what I want to do. Well, looking at all the different ways you could modify it, they've been doing that. So I went to NASA, and I said, hey, you've got some really fantastic, incredible polymers here. Have you ever thought about using them in biomedical applications? And they said, well, we don't do that here. I said, Well, why don't we? And so I started a project there. Kenna Pell Oh my gosh, that was amazing. I love the way how you went from, you know, baseline mechanical engineering, you know, working boats and things like that. What was that program that you had mentioned you were working with? What was it called? Lisa Carnell It was a, I was a co-op for NAVSEA Cent Lab. Kenna Pell Okay, what does that stand for? Lisa Carnell Naval Sea Support Center Atlantic. Kenna Pell Got it, okay. So to go from that to be like, I want to understand the engineering of the human body. What was there? Maybe I missed this. What, what made you think of that? Lisa Carnell You know, that is interesting. I try to think back. You know, My mind was always wandering thinking about things, and I was just so fascinated with everything in engineering and how things worked. And I just kept thinking, you know, the body has fluids, it has structure, it has every has electrical it has every possible engineering aspect, all in one place. And I don't know, I just, it just kind of came to me and in my thoughts. Kenna Pell I never thought of it. And I don't know if there's biomedical engineers listening to this, and they're like, Well, of course, but I just never thought of it as an engineering system. You've got all these different systems, and sometimes when you think about them and how they all work together so seamlessly, it's like, oh my gosh. Lisa Carnell And, you know, it's so funny. I went to some professors and I said, Oh, you know, I'm super interested in, you know, the human body, and, you know, biomedical engineering, you know, I'm much older, so biomedical engineering wasn't a very big field at the time. And they said, well, one of the professors said, you know, Lisa, this is a really small field, you know, it's not growing. And I said, “well, I think you're wrong.” I know nothing about this- “so I think you're wrong.” And I said, “I think this is the most fascinating area.” And he said, “Okay, you go ahead.” And no kidding. I think a decade later, it saw a huge boom, you know, just kind of as you see, AI is now, you know, front and center biomedical engineering, bio engineering, just different ways that we can use biology to mimic materials that all took off, you know, within, like, the next decade and so now you see programs everywhere. It was incredible. Kenna Pell I think that you know, everything you explained is super inspiring for people, whether they're in college or whether, you know, just chasing different I would say dreams or things that inspire them or things they want to do, right? Just ask the question is the first thing, the worst they can say is no, let someone else tell you no type of thing. And you did that with not only NASA, but you had mentioned with the program with your masters. That's really, really cool. Okay, so I want to get into a little deeper about your previous roles, and not totally understanding all the intricacies of the different scientific disciplines- tech transfer, medical sciences, program sciences, can you talk about those roles and how they led you to where you are now? So maybe talking about what you had mentioned with the polymer studies and how you got to NASA and to where you are now. Lisa Carnell Yeah, so I did my master's degree, and I really focused in on a high performance polyamide at NASA, and a company came along and licensed that technology along with a piezo electric device that had been developed there. Kenna Pell Is that where you step on it and it creates energy that way? Lisa Carnell Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's piezo, these- you got it! So piezo materials, which are really cool, and your body has piezoelectricity. So literally, so with these materials, if you if you press on them, they actually elicit an electric signal. And if you apply electric signal they move. So this is a really key part, because this really builds on my future. So I played with those a lot in the lab. I loved being in the lab. I broke things. I had a lot of fun, blew a few things up. More of like materials, just kind of flying everywhere. But had a great time and learned a lot this company, Dominion Resources, the holding company of Dominion energy, very large corporation, came in and licensed the polymer and the piezoelectric device from NASA, and they wanted to help move it out to commercial industry. And so they hired me to be the technology representative and actually develop prototypes for the companies. So I got- I traveled the world. I was really young, traveling the world. I made, I made prototypes for pacemaker companies, heart valves, player pianos, fuel injectors. I worked all over, all over the place. It was incredible. I was super busy. I literally changed suitcases every week. Super fun. My best story of this and the outcome, for about five or six years, I worked really closely with Medtronic, and we would play with the polymer on how we could, you know, coat it onto their lead wires for their pacemakers and defibrillators, because I had a really high dielectric breakdown, and they would coil it and they would crack, or these were failing in people. So, you know, they could get a better material on it. While I worked with them, we got it to work successfully. It's now implanted in humans. So it was a home run. Kenna Pell Wow. From heart valves to player pianos, wow, okay, okay, it's incredible. So you were with them, and then how did you get back to NASA from there? Lisa Carnell So I did this for so many years, and literally, you know, I was getting exhausted, but in all the time, like I told you, my mind always working. And as I was playing with all these different materials and things, and of course, my fascination with the human body, I thought I really wanted to do something that I felt was going to have a huge impact and help people. So I kind of married the idea of all the things I had worked with, and thought, what if I could invent, so my nickname for them, jumper cables for people that were paralyzed, if I used piezoelectric polymer fibers that were flexible and could send that signal across. Maybe it's just the signal isn't making it across the junction. Maybe if I could bridge that gap with these jumper cables, it would help to improve people that were paralyzed. And so I wrote up this project description and went to NASA. By the way, Medtronic signed their agreement with NASA to use this technology, you know, moving forward in their in their implants. On that my wedding day, they called me to say we've signed, you know, good to go. And so then I put in my notice that I was leaving to go back to graduate school. So I went on to get my PhD, to work on this project, to use everything I'd learned to try to help, you know, people that had paralysis. Kenna Pell Sure, okay, and so that brought you back to NASA, right now, what happened after you were done with that research study and your PhD? Lisa Carnell Yeah, so, well, during that research study in my PhD, I invent, and invented a lot of different things, the piezo polymers, and also extrapolated that to what I call, my kids affectionately called, the electric Band Aid. Mom, basically it, it showed that it could heal wounds faster just by the piezoelectric response of the materials. But you know, sometimes you think of these things, and you know, they don't always come together in the lab the way you imagine. You get these serendipitous finds, like the band aid. But I needed these fibers to be manufactured, and it didn't exist. So I had to invent that. How do how do I make piezo fibers? And so I was able to do that. I finished my PhD. They said, Hey, if you want to go down this route, you're going to be here another 10 years. So I started working with stem cells and culturing them on my piezoelectric construct that I made so I was able to drive those into nerve cells so that they could be used for transplantation. So crazy, crazy, roundabout way… Kenna Pell Your path to NASA, yes, Lisa Carnell And NASA paid for. My education, I went to Duke University for my doctorate, and NASA gave me a grant to do all of this research. So it was fantastic. Kenna Pell You've been fascinated by inventions, and that's kind of what sparked you to get into all of this. Eight patents is a lot. Do you have one or two you'd like to highlight? I know we talked about the piezo polymers, the electric Band Aid. Was there any other ones you wanted to highlight? Lisa Carnell So a lot of them all built on each other, which is sort of interesting. Sometimes you don't go out. I didn't anyway. I didn't go out saying, I want to be, you know, invent this. It was, oh my gosh, I need this material, and it doesn't exist. So I had to figure out a way to make it happen. And so that resulted in a patent. The neat thing with that one, the piezo fibers, is that they could be used in a lot of things. We could weave them into suits, you know, to make your spacesuit more piezo responsive and possibly, you know, measure different things so they're more electroactive suits. But then, obviously, my favorite patent, I would say, I think you asked was, was the wound healing one. That one's exciting. There's, it's licensed to a small company right now, so we'll see where they take it. But it was demonstrating some really strong results, and I think that has significance for people with diabetes. You know, we tested it in rodents that have diabetic models, and it outperformed the gold standard, so I would love to see that happen. It would make people's lives so much easier with diabetic wounds. Kenna Pell That is amazing. I love the way that you explained how the patents kind of build off of each other, and that's something that we talk about with the space station science too, how it ends up building and, you know, compounding. And so that totally makes sense on that front as well. Okay, getting into your world and talking about your world of science here at NASA: BPS, or Biological and Physical Sciences, first, can you explain it to me like I'm five? What is Biological and Physical Sciences? Are we talking about them together or separate? Lisa Carnell So we're talking about them separate, but it's really interesting, because sometimes you know things do couple. So in the biological sciences, it's a really broad portfolio. We cover everything from all the way down to microbes to plants to animals and 3d human tissue models. So we cover everything imaginable in biology. Kenna Pell That was the biology side? Okay. Lisa Carnell And then physical sciences is huge too. So if you can imagine, my portfolio is massive. So we cover, you know, fire, combustion, you know, how do you put out fire, and how does it start in space, it's very different than ground fluids, fluids don't use we see the bubbles of fluids floating around in space. And we have materials. The way materials come together and form crystalline structures are much more perfect in space. How can we take advantage of that? You know? And believe it or not, I also have quantum in my portfolio. We have the cold atom laboratory up on space station. So our physical sciences is a huge breadth of material. Kenna Pell What is fundamental research? And why does it matter? Lisa Carnell Okay, um, I get asked this question all the time, and, and, you know, it's, it's interesting, because a lot of people don't have that appreciation for fundamental research, because they don't see the end result all the time, sure, because it's always, you know, much earlier stage in the whole applied science field. So it focuses on increasing our knowledge and understanding of the way things work, or it leads to new basic principles of science. It paves the way for all the scientific breakthroughs that we see in the applied area and all of the technologies, you know? So it's a, it's basically, you know, if you think in the term of Legos, it is the base lego building block for all of the applied sciences and technologies down the road. Kenna Pell What's an example of what fundamental research would be? I'm trying to think of what the word fundamental and I think you did a good job of explaining that kind of the baseline, I don't know, but when I think about it, I think we've done so much science and research. Is there still fundamental research to be done? Lisa Carnell Yeah, that, that's a great question. Science never sleeps. Science is always going, and you're never done, right? Because every time you answer a question, another question arises, which is very exciting, right? Yeah, but yeah, no, there's and you don't know what you don't know. And so that's kind of where this fundamental science aspect comes in. Is kind of exploring the unknown and trying to, you know, learn, we learn something new. You know, back in the days when they discovered CRISPR, the ability to go in and precisely edit genes using that technology that was built off of fundamental research where they were trying to figure out how to, you know, improve the growth of the yeast in yogurt. You know, who would have ever thought now we can use it to improve human health. Kenna Pell Why do we do research in space. Lisa Carnell So the research that we do in space, we do it in space because it's impossible to do on Earth, the things that we're doing, but also as we want to be a humanity that explores and moves on an interplanetary, you know, species, we need to understand how to live, work and thrive in deep space environments. And so doing that research in space not only does it help us learn more about, you know, what we have here on Earth in different ways, but it's helping us, NASA, you know the human species as a whole, you know, be able to take that next leap and explore! Kenna Pell Absolutely. And speaking of what you had just mentioned, places to do science and their benefits in the different places. What makes it interesting to perform science and research and all of those different or unique places, talking LEO, Lunar, or Mars? Lisa Carnell Oh my gosh, it's so exciting. We've been doing research in LEO on the International Space Station for 25 years now. And you know, we've learned so much in that, in that short span, really, how do you live and work and thrive and, you know what the question in the beginning, can humans thrive in a reduced gravity environment? Well, we've been able to demonstrate that, right? And so that's fantastic. But now, as we move out to the moon or to Mars, we have different gravities that we have to deal with. We have different environments. You know, whether it's more increased radiation, you know, the atmosphere, or lack of atmosphere. And so now we have this whole new problem set that we get to work on. Some people find it daunting. I think it's incredibly exciting. I love taking on those new challenges. Kenna Pell Are there benefits? Or can you explain the benefits of, say, crewed interactions versus uncrewed research? Lisa Carnell Yeah, so there's there. That's a really great question. We've had this discussion so much in my division. We started the CERISS program, which is called Commercially Enabled Rapid Space Science. And I think that that's where we really need to go, in the LEO environment if we want to, you know, accelerate the pace of research. That's what it focuses on. And part of that involves the crew, so having the crew engaging with the experiments in real time and iterating just like you would in the lab on the ground. So when you go into the lab, if you see something like some of the examples I was telling you earlier, when I was playing with materials, and I see something, I can tweak it in real time. Right now, the way we do our experiments, we send the experiment up, we get support from an astronaut, they work with the PI on the ground, and then they send the samples back for analysis, and then we repeat that. Well, it might be years before you can repeat it, or maybe you never do. You never really close the loop. And we can move so much quicker if we can do the analysis in space, send the results back to Earth, and we no longer have to keep sending the materials back and forth. Increases the pace of science, our understanding in space, and you know, really will start to move the needle in the direction we need to go. Kenna Pell You do a really good job of setting the context or the understanding of what Biological and Physical Science type of research is. And so I want to ask, you know, what are examples of those different type of BPS, Biological and Physical Sciences research that's on space station? But I thought a good way we could go about that is: can you walk us through BPS, your division scientific goals? Is there any sort of framework or pillars, and then from there, if we, if we walk through those and kind of understand, you know, what type of research that is taking place and where? Lisa Carnell Absolutely. So, we created a framework for five key goals that we're taking on right now in the in my division, BPS, and that was shaped by the decadal survey that we received in 2023. And so we kind of, we took a look at that, and then we focused on what the priorities were for moving forward for Moon to Mars, and we separated them out. Our goals are precision health. We have space crops. We all love that. How do you grow food off the planet? And then we have quantum leaps, all of the quantum science in space. We have foundations. So foundations covers all of our physical sciences areas. And then space labs. And space labs was fun and a unique one, because predominantly, our science has been done in LEO, in microgravity on the space station. And, you know, space labs, I brought forward and said, “Let's challenge everyone.” This is doing science anywhere, on any platform. So it could be on the moon, around the moon, out to Mars, in deep space, parabolic, sub orbital it's wherever we need the science to be done. To understand at that level. Kenna Pell You had mentioned the decadal survey. Who administered that or put that together, was that from the agency or outside? Lisa Carnell So the National Academies of Science and engineering and medicine actually do the run and put the decadal survey together for us. So they solicit experts from the community, and they get together, and it takes about two years, and they hold meetings and really try to gather the knowledge base on where we've been, you know, how far we've come, and then where they think we should be going. Kenna Pell Okay. And is that for specific to NASA, and how NASA can help the outside research community? Lisa Carnell Yeah, so it is specific to NASA that help us shape our goals and where we're moving. And so from that, we were able to generate these incredible goals. Kenna Pell I did not realize that. Okay, so you had mentioned the five goals, sort of the framework through BPS and your scientific goals. They are precision health, space crops, quantum leaps, foundations and space labs. Let's go through each one. Let's start with precision health. And do you have a couple of examples of the research you're supporting with that? Lisa Carnell I do. So let me just start with MABL-B. So that stands for Microgravity Associated Bone Loss. So we all know bone loss is an issue for the astronauts in space, right? And so this experiment is really looking at the bone forming stem cells and how those are modified in microgravity, and so we're really excited about that. It's actually returning, coming up here soon, so we'll get that science back and really be able to do the analysis. But one that we're so excited about is AVATAR, and that stands for A Virtual Astronaut Tissue Analog Response, and so AVATAR is actually flying on Artemis II. And what's really exciting is this is a first of a kind experiment where we're using cutting edge organ chip models, and these are made from the crew members themselves. So we got blood from each of the crew members, and they were so excited to participate. It was incredible. So we've been able to work with them create these bone marrow models that are going to fly right next to them, and when they come back, we'll be able to do a deep dive analysis on what happened and the changes in microgravity and deep space radiation. And then they're also, the Human Research Program is doing a study looking at immune biomarkers. The immune system starts in the bone marrow, and so we'll be able to really do some correlation into, you know, where the changes they saw and what we saw, and how those impacts, you know, are associated with deep space environment. What's also really neat about this is that these are individuals, so they're tied to each individual astronaut. So we have, you know, we have some males, we have a female. We have all of these disparate individuals. So we get to see the individual response. So, you know, Christina might be very different from Reid or Jeremy or Victor. So we'll get to see how individuals respond differently, which, you know, this very early stage, but the end goal would be to allow us to send these out and eventually create personalized medical kits for crew members as they venture out into deep space. Kenna Pell This AVATAR research and the way that you explain it is amazing and super layered. How did this all come about in your work with it? Lisa Carnell Yeah, so I couldn't be more excited about AVATAR and serendipitous enough it it came together really built on one of my previous jobs at NASA, where I worked in space radiation and was a medical countermeasure lead and was leaning in. And part of our strategy, in the strategy that I was developing was to use organ chip models to start to screen and evaluate countermeasures for radiation, and so creating this opportunity to send avatar into deep space was really powerful and and, you know, really built on my understanding and knowledge from the space radiation environment. So funny enough, when I was in that role as a space radiation medical countermeasure lead, I didn't know what I was doing. Let me just say, to be honest. You know, I just knew it was something that was important that we had to do to help the crew and make sure that we protected them on these missions. And so when I was assigned to take this on and lead this area, I started by reaching out to other organizations and agencies that were already working in this space for different reasons. And so really have become close with BARDA, the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, all the different organizations at NIH and the FDA, and they've all become significant partners of ours, in fact, so much so when AVATAR came about, they really helped guide me and helped me learn and educate me a lot in the medical countermeasure area for radiation. And so when AVATAR came around, I went to them and said, Hey, I'm going to do this incredible experience looking at Deep Space Radiation and comparing it directly to healthy individuals, and they all said, I want to be part of that. And so these organizations have joined us in this mission and contributed substantially to it. And so they have a vested interest, and it's incredible they'll be at the launch. And we're all excited for not only how this is going to help NASA move its mission forward to protect astronauts. But how we protect people right here on Earth from, you know, nuclear events or other exposures to radiotherapy, and you know how you give them countermeasures to protect them from those aspects? So it's incredible. Kenna Pell Let's talk about, you know, second out of five. I mean, there's no sort of rank, but like we talked about precision health, let's go over to space crops. Can you tell us a little bit about that from the BPS standpoint? Lisa Carnell Yeah, space crops is great, because we all relate to that. I don't know if you've seen “The Martian,” you know, how do, how do you grow food on another planetary body, or the Moon. And so the goal of space crops is to figure that out, even so we have APEX-12 up on the Space Station right now, and it's taken a look at the changes in telomeres and how the stressful environments affect those and then what can we learn from that to help, you know, make the crops more robust so they can grow in these really incredibly challenging environments, and building on, believe it or not, the twin study. And I know you heard about the NASA… Kenna Pell Yeah, yeah. Can you explain that to our listeners what the twin study was, in case they don't know? Lisa Carnell And so the NASA twin study was groundbreaking. You know, we had Mark Kelly on the ground. We had Scott Kelly, you know, spending a year in space, and they're twins, so we were able to look at the changes and what happened to each of those astronauts. Well, Mark was a former astronaut, and he was on the ground, but what happened to each of those individuals while Scott spent a year in space, and we saw changes in Scott's telomeres. And so that's really important. Telomeres, you know, have a lot of implication. They can be associated with cancer and some other areas. Kenna Pell I was gonna say, what are telomeres? Lisa Carnell So they're there at the ends of the chromosomes. And so they, they, basically, they're like caps at the end. And as they get smaller and smaller, you know, you know, then you get more, more damage is occurring. It starts shortening your telomeres. But what they saw were changes in the telomeres that were opposite encounter to what Mark was seeing on the ground, what we were seeing in Mark on the ground. And so we think these telomeres are associated with stressful environments in space, we see that in the plants. So, yeah, I mean, would you, you, you know, so when, when my team was telling me, “we're correlating, you know, our plant stress with the twin study?” And I said, “Well, that's an interesting extrapolation.” But isn't that fascinating, the way that you can do the cross correlation with life, right? Biology is, is not that alike. It's really fascinating, sure. But I did want to also highlight another really cool space crops experiment, and so we call it our, you know, our our ability to do space farming. So it's called LEAF so it stands for Lunar Effects on Agricultural Flora. And this experiment is actually sending plants down to the lunar surface. They're going to be in a container, so we're not planting them directly in the ground, but then we're going to take a look at how this changes in the partial gravity and the radiation environment on the moon. That's going to help inform how we grow plants there in the future. Kenna Pell How are you able to track that once we leave? Lisa Carnell we'll leave the hardware there, and we'll have cameras in there to watch them grow. So we'll be able to actually see what's happening, which is great. Kenna Pell You've done a great job with you know, we've gone over precision, home and space crops, two of the five different pillars of BPS science. And I love both the LEO, low earth orbit, or ISS, and, you know, Moon, different studies that you're sharing. This is really, really good. Let's go over to quantum leaps. Lisa Carnell Okay, quantum leaps. So quantum leaps is great. You know, right now we have a huge emphasis on quantum you know, in our country, it is, it is incredibly important that we lean in to this area. We've been doing some of the most cutting-edge quantum research for NASA, believe it or not, in our division. We have the Cold Atom Laboratory. We've been doing this in space for a long period of time. And. And it's the first facility ever to study ultra cold atoms in microgravity. So it cools the atoms to near absolute zero. And this allows the researchers to study quantum way phenomenon, ways that you can't do on Earth. So this is the only one of its kind. It's incredibly exciting. Kenna Pell You mentioned quantum being a big focus, right? And of course, it's AI and now you hear all about quantum too. Can you explain quantum to our folks who may not understand just the very basic levels what that means? Lisa Carnell Yeah, so quantum is like really looking in at that next level. So think about Einstein and his theory with quantum and relativity and time disposition and and the way, the way, but the way atoms interact at a different level than what we're used that we can normally measure on it we can see. So for example, like we were able to measure for the first time, a dual species Bose Einstein condensate. And I'm just waiting for because I know you want to ask me, what is that? Kenna Pell You should just explain it now, like, what does that mean? Lisa Carnell What is a Bose Einstein condensate? So this is like, where a very small group of atoms act like a single, large particle. And so we, we've been able to, they discover them first here on ground, on the ground, but not in the dual we've never been able to do a dual Bose Einstein condensate, and we did rubidium and potassium in space, and we were able to measure those. So at the quantum level, things happen so quickly, it's really difficult to measure them. And so they slow down in the cold and in the microgravity environment. And so we can actually start to measure things at this you know, really, really, I can't even use a word “tiny” level. Kenna Pell Let's talk about the next of five different research pillars with BPS. And let's go over to foundations. You mentioned this was more of like the physical science. Okay, yeah, tell us more about that. Lisa Carnell Of course. Okay. And finally, again, like I said, foundations is broad, so I'll touch on a couple of really key ones for us. So we're doing an experiment. It's running right now on the International Space Station. It's called ZBOT. It stands for our Zero Boil Off Tank, non-condensable gas experiment. And so this is a really important experiment. We're getting a lot of great data to understand cryogenic fluid, which is our propellant, right, and how it behaves in microgravity. So when they want to transfer cryo propellant, say, to another vehicle. Some of our commercial companies are looking at doing that. You know, how do you do that in a microgravity environment differently? And so the behavior of the fluids are different, and then you've got the heat and mass, boil off that's different. And so we're able to measure, make measurements in our system up in space station, and the data that we're collecting is fed into a model that all of the commercial companies are using to help model that system and improve their cryogenic fluid transfer and activity to get them out to Mars and beyond. Kenna Pell I love that. That's something we didn't even touch on. Was, you know, supporting the research community, but also commercial space industry as well. Lisa Carnell Yeah, absolutely, and that's huge, right now, right, right, that’s the future. And lastly, I can't, I can't leave this one out, because this is one that I just absolutely love. We have our and you did a podcast with them recently, the flammability of materials on the Moon! So you did a whole podcast, so we can direct folks to that. But literally, we're going to be sending a payload to the lunar surface that's going to let us see how combustion happens in partial gravity. It's not the same in microgravity, and won't be the same in partial gravity, but this what's really neat about this one. It isn't just like, oh, how does combustion work? We are working with the Mars campaign office and crew health to understand what material is of concern, and can we send that to the lunar surface, put it in the environment, because they're going to use higher oxygen environments so that they can reduce pre-breathe time. So having it in this partial-g higher oxygen environment, in a material that they are concerned about, and we can actually see it and test it before they send people. Kenna Pell It’s crazy. You have to think ahead to problems we don't even have. Yet right in this type of science, exactly. Last but not least, let's talk space labs. Lisa Carnell Yeah, space Labs is so exciting because, and you've heard it kind of through each of the goal areas, where we've spent most of our time doing research on a parabolic flight as a precursor, and using drop towers, and then moving up into LEO. Now we're saying, Okay, let's go to deep space. We're going to the Moon. We're going on CLPS lander. We're going to ride along with the crew and Orion, I'm ready for the next one, heading out to Mars. We are doing our science anywhere on any platform. And so that's a really unique way for us to gather the data NASA needs to support its exploration goals. Kenna Pell You know, talking continued research and things you had mentioned, the 25 years of continuous human presence on Space Station- what can we look to celebrate space station and its contributions to BPS? Lisa Carnell Oh, my goodness, that's a loaded question, because there's so much. I mean, the success of the division, the knowledge that we've gained that's enabling NASA technology, enabling us to live and thrive in space, you know, has been, you know, thanks to the space station. I think it is- I think we will, it will be decades before we really start to fully appreciate it, the value that we've had from all of the science and the investigations we've done on the International Space Station, from understanding protein crystal growth to the way fluids behave. You know, everybody loves watching the astronauts, you know, capture the bubble, the fluids in their mouth, or the bubbles that float around. You know, that's a real situation that you know they have to deal with. Fluids behave different. You know, it's it has been a true stepping stone for our desire to live off, off Earth and be an interplanetary species. So I can't speak high enough of the incredible value it's brought to BPS and to NASA and the world for that matter. Kenna Pell There's so much excitement for science on the Moon and Mars. What is BPS most looking forward to? Lisa Carnell Oh, my goodness, to be honest, I'm looking forward to doing more research out in Deep Space. I want to support the agency's goals of sustainable presence on the Moon. And you know, with that comes from, you know, helping ensure crew safety through, you know, supporting the Human Research Program and their goals for counter measures to protect the astronauts and developing personalized medical kits to creating that greenhouse that will allow the crew to grow their own crops, you know, on another planet. So I'm looking forward to how we can enable all of those activities and really be front and center in supporting the agency's goals. Kenna Pell As we move into more and more Moon and Mars research, how does NASA plan to continue research in low Earth orbit? Lisa Carnell Now, that is a great question. You know, we are poised in the fundamental research that we do in BPS to really support our new administrator. Administrator Isaacman's vision. You know, he is really leaned into ensuring that we maintain American leadership and the space environment. And you know, that's what we're really set up to do, to realize the science and economic potential on the lunar surface, and all of the different projects that I've described to you earlier. And then, you know, increasing the rate at world changing science discovery. And how's that going to happen? You know, that's one of his pillars. How is that going to happen? Well, that's going to happen as we, you know, also lean in towards this new commercial LEO economy, the low Earth orbit arena, where we're helping to foster that orbital economy, another one of administrator Isaacman's pillars, really leaning into that orbital economy. And we're doing that by working really closely with each of the commercial LEO destination providers. We talk with them about our utilization needs, and as soon as possible, we are putting our science on board every platform when they are available. So I'm really excited about what that means. LEO is a stepping stone for all of our future exploration activities, and so it's not going away. We really need that to understand and build upon the next iteration. And so really having NASA front and center is going to help to maintain the economic value in low Earth orbit, to really make it accessible for anybody that wants to do their research in space. Kenna Pell What would you like to share with young people curious about entering a strange new field? Lisa Carnell Oh, so, you know, I say, go for it, you know. Don't shy away from opportunities when they present yourself like I said, my path was so organic. Just, you know, and create, you know, if you have ideas and go create it, be proactive, you know, go after it, you know, I I don't know where I would have been had I not knocked on the doors of doctors and, you know, found my path, you know, forward in the biomedical area. So and when people come to you, you know, and they offer, offer you a project and you're afraid, maybe you don't feel like you know what to do. Go for it. They didn't ask you blindly. You know, take it on, ask for help. But I just say the big thing, the biggest takeaway, is just go for it. Kenna Pell Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. Lisa Carnell Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. <Outro Music> Kenna Pell Thanks for sticking around. I hope you learned something new today. You can check out the latest from around the agency at nasa.gov. We previously talked about the FM2 experiment on episode 386. And you can find our full collection of episodes and all the other wonderful NASA podcasts at nasa.gov/podcasts. On social media we're on NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, X, and Instagram. If you have any questions for us or suggestions for future episodes, email us at nasa-houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov. This episode was recorded on January 20, 2026. Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill, and our social media is managed by Leah Cheshier and Kelcie Howren. Houston We Have a Podcast was created and is supervised by Gary Jordan. Special, thanks to Julie Lele and Megan Dorney for helping us plan and set up this interview. And of course, thanks again to Dr. Lisa Carnell for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on, and tell us what you think of our podcast. We'll be back next week.