HWHAP Ep400 Advancing NASA

Ep400_Advancing NASA Gary Jordan Houston We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center Episode 400: Advancing NASA. I'm Gary Jordan, and I'll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. For more than eight years, this podcast has been able to chat with incredible guests who have shared their incredible stories and expertise and brought the wonder of space exploration to our dedicated listeners. I look back and can't help but be thankful for all of those who contributed, whether it be a guest, a podcast team member, a supportive leader, or an engaged fan. There's no way we would have reached 400 episodes without this support. When we reached our 300th episode, we were intentional to not have a conversation looking back on all we've done, but to look forward specifically to the value of human presence in low Earth orbit and the leadership here at Johnson helping to make it happen. On the 400th episode, we once again look to the future, and I'm pleased to welcome our guest, acting NASA Administrator, Sean Duffy. A Wisconsin native, Secretary Duffy was raised in an Irish Catholic family, and is the 10th of 11 siblings. No stranger to cooperation and compromise, he certainly found his way to stand out though and accomplished many great things, including being a world champion lumberjack athlete, a reality TV star, a US Representative and a television co host, a graduate of St Mary's University of Minnesota with a degree of marketing and a Juris Doctor from William Mitchell College of Law. Secretary, Duffy was confirmed as the 20th US Secretary of Transportation by the Senate earlier this year, and is currently serving as the acting NASA Administrator. He and his wife Rachel Campos-Duffy, have been married for 25 years and have nine children together. Secretary Duffy and I discuss his background and, as the current leader of America's Space Agency, what his plans are to advance NASA towards the ambitious goals bestowed upon us. With that, for the 400th episode of Houston We Have a Podcast, here's acting NASA Administrator, Sean Duffy. Enjoy. Gary Jordan Secretary Duffy, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you here for our 400th episode. Welcome. Sean Duffy Wow! Congratulations! 400 and I get the 400th podcast. What an honor. By the way, I used to do a podcast. Did it for about three years, and, man, they're awesome, because it's this long format, different kind of conversation. So, but again, you've gotten to 400. Congratulations on that. Gary Jordan I appreciate that, and it's nice to have you here. I think- I'm excited to introduce you to our listeners. Our listeners is the space community, right? So to get them to know you and what we have in store for NASA. First of all, the reason you're here at the Johnson Space Center is you got a tour of our center. I hope you had a really good experience. Sean Duffy So listen, I had a chance to go to Kennedy for the Crew-11 launch, which was awesome again. And you look at the storied history of both Kennedy and Johnson, it's remarkable. But then, you know, to be here today and meet so many of the men and women who make truly the magic happen and see all that they're working on. Had a chance to meet a couple of our Artemis II crew met all four of them when I was at Kennedy, but again, remarkable people that are doing remarkable things that I think are- I know that your listeners understand this, but I don't think that all of America understands how critically important what what happens here, and across NASA, is to America. America's leadership in space, our innovation. But also there's, there was, there was a time when, I guess the saying was, “he who controlled the oceans controls the world.” I think the future is “whoever controls space controls the world.” And again we come. America is great because we're a peaceful country. We were a democracy. We're not looking at taking over the world. We give people when we win wars, we give them their land back, right? We have a long history of being good neighbors and good partners, but not everybody has that reputation. And again, that's why it's so important that we win this race in space and race to the moon and race to Mars. Gary Jordan And I want to dive into that with you, but first, for our listeners, right? For the space community, of course, you're well known, right? It's, it's not that you like your name is, is not out there, world champion Lumberjack, reality TV star us, Representative co host of the bottom line, your name is for is certainly known. But in the space community, I'd love to, just to take it back to your to your childhood growing up in Wisconsin, um. And get our listeners a little bit more familiar with you. You were born into quite a full household already. By the time you were born, you had nine older siblings, right? Sean Duffy Yeah. So I'm from on the 10th of 11 siblings. I grew up in a small town in northern Wisconsin. Now, frankly, most of my brothers and sisters still live in that small town and in but I'm just I'm not I am in a brag, and I am biased, but some of the most beautiful land, especially in the summer, is in northern Wisconsin, and I live in lake country, and so I have a small cabin there. Like to get back as much as possible to, it's Hayward. Hayward, Wisconsin, the muskie capital of the world. Muskie is a big fish, if you don't know that, but my kids will spend their summers there. And you know, these kids are on their phones and social media, and it's a great place where they fish, and they paddle board, and they swim, and they'll ski, and wake surf. So it's a great place. But I grew up, and I think an idyllic place in the world, and I love it there. Now, my wife will tell you, and as I've gotten older, it gets northern Wisconsin is cold in the winter, but I grew up doing competing in lumberjack sports. So if you think of ESPN 6 at four o'clock in the morning, this is chopping, sawing, log, rolling, tree climbing, all skills that the old lumberjacks used to use in the woods have evolved into this modern day competition. And really they're amazing athletes who compete in these sports. And I was more of a log roller, but I really had perfected the speed climb, which is a race up and down. It could be a 60 or 90 foot, sometimes in some regions, 100-foot spar pole. And so you're going 100 feet or 90 feet up in the air, and then it's a free fall, in essence, back down to earth. And so it's a race up and down. And again, I put myself through undergrad and law school competing in lumberjack sports. And it's truly, it's Americana. It's an American, very American sport. And it comes from this great part of American history where these lumberjacks, you know, cut these, these, these big white pine and basically built this expanding country as we moved west. Gary Jordan That's awesome. Now you mentioned one part where you use the lumberjack competitively to pay your way through education, and you were accomplishing a lot, and when, seemingly just a short period of time, right, a degree in marketing, you got, you pursuing a Juris Doctor in in law, you were on reality television, of course, world champion lumberjack. This is where you met your wife, Rachel Campos-Duffy, right around this time. So you got family, you got education, you got you got competition, all in this short period of time. How did you find the balance? Sean Duffy Well, so first, let me say the marketing degree that I earned was the most worthless, worthless degree one could ever attain in old age. I found it. I should have done something else, but I got it. I graduated. I was accepted to law school. I took a year off, and I went and skied in Breckenridge, Colorado. I drove bus at the resort, grew my hair out to my shoulders, had a blast, and then went to law school, and I went to at that time, it was one of Minnesota's three law schools. And after a year and a half of law school, I had applied at the time listen. So depending on the age of your listener, younger people don't understand this, but some older listeners might. But MTV’s The Real World. Was kind of like influencer-esque today is a very popular reality TV show. It's. Yeah, and so I was selected to be a cast of one of seven housemates. And what they do is they pick seven people from really different walks of life, and make them live together. And because human nature is that we pick people that are like us, that think like us, that come from backgrounds like us, that look like us, that have the same religion like we pick people like us to associate with, and you don't associate with people who are very different in views and backgrounds, and they get conflict when they do that right, making you live together. And what I found is, at first blush, I really saw all the differences that I had with my housemates, and by the time I left, I had way more in common with my housemates than I would have thought at first blush. And I think oftentimes we don't give people a chance because of what we might think are our differences. And again, I just that was a great lesson to learn that we, many of us, have far more in common than what we might think divides us at first blush. So I did that for for six months, and then they asked me to do a second show, where- there was a second show on MTV, which is which was called Road Rules. And they asked, they were taking a cast member from each of the past Real World episodes and having them do a special episode of Road Rules. And they picked me from my cast. And they, unbeknownst to me, they picked my wife from her cast in San Francisco, and she had a very famous show. She was on with Puck and Pedro in San Francisco, a very famous season of the of The Real World, and at the time and and we have our meeting on tape. She handed me her bag as she walked off the train, and I've said I've been carrying her bag ever since, but we dated for roughly a year and a half. Got married, by the way, I went back to law school, finished my another year and a half of law school, was married and studied for the bar, and I went back to Wisconsin and started practicing law with my dad for about a year, and after that, I got a job as a special prosecutor, supposed to be short term in northern Wisconsin County, and that turned into, eventually me having the job as the DA and I did that for roughly 10 years before I ran for Congress. So I was- It was, it was, it was a great time. And I had this, I was growing my little family into, you know, we were having kids and spending time together, and it was just, it was, it's a great place to raise a family and and be a family. Gary Jordan A lot of these are seemingly unconnected, right? So I wonder what was driving you towards that next opportunity. There's, you know, maybe you're, you're in reality TV, but, you know, I want to go for law because the marketing really didn't do it for me. Sean Duffy It did not. Yeah, bus driving was not the thing either, for me. I was like, well, I could do more than that. I don't know my So, my dad is a lawyer, my brother is a lawyer, my other brother is a lawyer. So I thought, I'll go as well. So and getting, I think when we're young, I mean, I love kids that actually know what they want to do and what they're passionate about. I had no idea. And so this was like, you know, I'll go get a degree. I'll go study the law, and by the way, doing that and becoming a prosecutor. And I've said this numerous times, I'll tell you, I was, I was horrible as a litigator when I started trying cases, but over the course of 10 years, I became very good at it, and it was really helpful. And I ran for Congress. And I just thought that we- what you've seen in politics, just there's been an urban, rural divide that has there's been taking place over the course of the last 20, 25, 20 years. And so I thought our district, our community, was changing, and I and I ran and against a congressman who had been there for 42 years, and he ended up dropping out, and I won the seat, which was- I mean, serving in Congress is one of the most amazing experiences and honors that you could have, and it was, to have my kids be able to go to The Capitol was, I mean, really, you know, remarkable and really cool honor. Gary Jordan That's fantastic. What I'm getting is you're seeing something, you pursue it, right? You whatever passion it is, you just go for it full force, and then finding that balance that could be challenging. I myself have two kids trying to balance that with just, you know, just one job I can only imagine, right? So just all the different things that you're pursuing. We look, we jump to now with you as the US Secretary for Transportation now, taking on the Acting Administrator role. Right? No stranger to trying to balance and juggle separate things, separate priorities. I wonder how you're handling I mean, these are big responsibilities. Let me first say congratulations. By the way, these are esteemed positions in the US government. But I wonder how you're finding that balance. Sean Duffy So I think it's a really good question. And again, I couldn't first, first of all, be more honored that President Trump selected me to take the interim role here, and at a time when the President understands that I have a really big role at DoT, you know. And I, the day I was sworn in at six o'clock at at night on a Tuesday night, and the next night we had this, the horrible plane crash, the collision at TCA. And then, I mean, there's a number of different aviation, you know, accidents that happened after that. And so it's really brought us some clarity on, again, we want to, we want to build. When we spend money, we want to what we actually want to build, the roads and bridges that people are paying for. There was a lot of there was, there was a lot of cost, whether it was maybe some of the, there's- you got to do some green stuff, because that's what the law says. But there was more requirements on green that was, there was even- that which was required by law. And so- or even the DEI stuff. I want to- so we're focused on making sure we're building faster and more cost effectively, number one, but we also, as a main focus, have to get our air traffic control system modernized, upgraded, brand new. It should be state of the art. And we're using, you know, 1960s 1970s radar, or we're using copper, not fiber. Our systems are really old. And is it safe? Yes, but it is creaking. And so that's a big job. And, you know, NASA is a big job as well. And you, I guess what was, what's saying, if you if, if, if you want something done, ask a busy person. And so we're busy, and I have to navigate my time, but I think I've done it well so far. And again, I'm going to work on setting the mission and the goals that are consistent with the President's desires at NASA forever long he wants me to serve here, and again, I'm going to do both jobs, because both are incredibly important. Both are are safety driven. Safety is a key component to both of these positions. And by the way, if you look at, you know, because we do have the FAA, the work of NASA and the FAA with launches, we are, we are tightly integrated. We work together a lot, and so I think if he was going to pick someone, it did make sense to take me, move me in, because it's also an opportunity to streamline how we're permitting some of the especially commercial launches and make it more seamless. Again, it doesn't mean we're less safe. It doesn't mean we don't follow rules, but we should speak as one government, not as you know, multiple agencies in a government that just make things far more complicated and more costly. Gary Jordan Certainly, and appreciate your efforts on on all of this making our way to NASA. I want to start with something light is just, if you can think about a time that maybe, maybe something that maybe comes to mind, whether early life, or recently, even as recently as this tour, where you found inspiration in space exploration. Sean Duffy So I listen, I again, I so I was born in the early 70s. And again, it was, it was the downside of Apollo, but with the upside of of the shuttle program, which was very inspiring for for all young Americans. But if I'm honest, I this, and this is, this is a frustration I have. The Artemis program, you know, going back to the Moon, and staying on the Moon, and learning from that, and then going to Mars is, like, wildly exciting. And the problem is, I'm like, America doesn't know we're doing it like we're living off a lot of fumes from our prior successes and prior inspiration. And I think we have to, you know, talk about, you know, what? What are we doing now and again? I think, by the way, it's there's, I have a lot of kids, right? I have nine kids. My oldest is 25 my youngest is five. And if you look at what do, what do kids dress up as an for Halloween? Like? What do they wear? Like, what? And I have to imagine one of the most popular, and probably for the last 50 years, has been they dress up as astronauts, right? Because it has penetrated the culture in such a profound way. And we want to continue to inspire these young kids about exploration, human exploration, and where we can go, and what's beyond Earth's orbit. I think that's that's that that's the coolest thing. And again, to be part of that is, is really exciting to me. Gary Jordan The inspiration factor certainly now. Now you know, since being, since being requested by President Trump to come and take on this acting role, right? That was a month ago, I believe, like early July. You've had a chance to take a look at NASA. You're here today, right? And take a look at the whole landscape. First, first impressions, right? A month in, you're looking at the landscape of NASA, what are your What are your thoughts? Sean Duffy So again, it is a remarkable group of people who do remarkable things, hands down, full stop. But with that said, I do think that we have to move faster. We have to we have to be driven harder. Because what we're doing now truly matters. And I think bringing clarity to what we are doing, I think matters as well. And again, to say we are going to go to the moon, we are going to get to the south pole of the moon. We are going to have fission power at the south pole of the moon. We are going to have a base camp. We're going to stay like that matters, making sure that we can, you know, look at the next iteration of the International Space Station, or working with our private partners, that matters. We and again. So just to everyone who's listening, there's, there's, there's been a lot of angst and thought about, well, what's happening with the DRP and people are leaving, and do we have do you really buy into the mission? And I would just say that I do believe that that the science that supports space exploration matters. But if you look at the agencies in government, there's a lot of them that'll look at climate science, right? There's a lot of them that can do that. There's only one, there's only one agency that is space exploration, and that's us, right? That's what we do. And to think that we can do all these things and do all these things. Well, I think we can let other, other agencies, other departments, look at some of the other sciences, and that doesn’t mean we don't do any science, and we don't have to, but again, we were very helpful with our regard to the flooding in Texas. But we should also say, You know what, this is the mission, and this is what the science is going to drive it's going to drive us to the moon, to stay to Mars, and we're going to make sure we have an American heartbeat in space consistently. And that means when the space station comes, it comes down in 2030 we have planned, well, to make sure we have the next iteration up and ready to go. Gary Jordan So what you first started addressing was, was some of your directives. I want to, I want to dive into that that you signed upon with this Acting Administrator role. You talked about sciences. I want to dive into that just a little bit. And the deferred resignation program. You mentioned that as well. Let's start in low Earth orbit, right? You mentioned, you mentioned, really making sure that we're accelerating and meeting the timeline to have commercial stations in low Earth orbit. We have the International Space Station now, 25 years of continuous human presence that we're coming up on at the end of this year, and then your focus is really making sure that we're ready for that next step. Can you reflect on some of the things that maybe looking at the space station and its and the way it is positioned now and preparing for its safety orbit, and then how that is going to work with the timeline of meeting that directive right, getting ready for Safe, safe occupation of stations in low Earth orbit? Sean Duffy So, I mean, obviously the cooperation between the US and Russia is critical as you bring the space station out of orbit. And you know, we're on a good track together in that cooperation, which, by the way, as a side note, obviously there's a lot, there's a lot of disagreement right now between the US and Russia, especially in regard to Ukraine. I do think it's, it's, it's a bright spot, the cooperation that our two great countries have together in space. And I think we can build on that, and we should build on it. And so again, we're going to partner in in the de orbiting of the space station. I think that's, that's, that's critical, but also sending clear signals and resources that that we need an alternative from our, from our, from our private partners. And again, we have great need, but also what need? We have to assess the need, what kind of what kind of demand is there going to be from the private sector with with the next iteration of the space station? And I think that's going to help form how we move forward. Gary Jordan Addressing the need, looking at the industry and seeing exactly how NASA could be one of many customers, right? That's how we positioned it for low Earth orbit. You know, the idea is, is, it's a it's a burgeoning economy on its own. Now, you mentioned- Sean Duffy Which, by the way, isn't interesting. I think that a lot of people in, again, this is what they this is just my view. But 15, 20 years ago, no one could have envisioned the kind of economy that you would have in space, with the space economy, like it just, it's kind of like the iPhone at the start of the iPhone, like, no one understood how that was going to change your life, that you would get your directions, and you have social media, and you would bank, and you like- all of this stuff happens on your phone. Like, we didn't realize what tool this would be. And I think what's happened in low Earth orbit, in the space economy is, I don't think anyone could have foreseen this 20 years ago. In the same way with what's going to happen when we go to the Moon, the same kind of revolution of industry is going to take place as well, which is really exciting. And I want that to be American innovators, American companies, American manufacturers, American scientists. I want it to be led by our team. I don't want it to be led by another country, in some far off place, their team. Gary Jordan When you start thinking about the possibilities of what that could enable, you start getting really excited. I feel like we could talk here for hours just on that by itself, jumping to Artemis right to the Artemis initiative and all the supporting programs that contribute to enabling the success there. Of course, there's multiple components of that. Maybe we can address just the focus on this administration and you on Artemis, but you also mentioned fission panel, right on the on the lunar south pole, and how that could enable this, this continuous presence, as you are, our continual presence, permanent human presence. I wonder if you can address your priorities there for Artemis. Sean Duffy So again, we have Artemis II early next year. We hope earlier rather than later, or we're all speaking on the same page there, but we're in a good timeline right now. And then Artemis III is, you know, in mid to late ’27. Here's what I think about, right? I see I spent 10 years in Congress, and I think about the pressure that we come under on billions of dollars. And some will make the case that those billions of dollars could be spent somewhere else, on someone else, and why? Why should it be spent on NASA and space exploration? Why should it be spent on Artemis? And we can make the case about, you know what this means strategically. We could talk about what it means economically, which is all very real. Here is my one concern. If Artemis I, Artemis II, and Artemis III are all $4 billion a launch, $4 billion a launch. At $4 billion a launch, you don't have a Moon program. It just, I don't think that exists. We have to bring the price down. And so I have to think about and work with members of Congress. What does Artemis IV, V, and VI look like? But to spend that much money in thinking about what we have to do to have a sustained presence, I think becomes very, very challenging. And so what? What is the answer? I don't know, but those are things that I think about, because you look at what the the private sector has done for access to space. For the private sector, again, you can, you can have a satellite and get it into space for, you know, a million, little over a million dollars like that was unheard of 20 years ago. What's happening to drive the price down of these, of of these vehicles. That's what we have to think about, because the $4 billion figure just is too massive to think we can be sustainable at that number. Gary Jordan Absolutely looking at the efficiencies in the taxpayer dollar and exactly how we can meet those objectives. The next item you touched on was science, and you mentioned focusing that science. I wonder if you can expand a little bit on that, on how your goals, to focus the science on the one thing that NASA could do, space exploration. Sean Duffy Well, so, yeah, so I think that there was, there was sometimes when you have, you know, everything is your priority, all. I mean, you have a space exploration and you have the International Space Station, and you have kind of Artemis, and you have all of, you know, the climate change, and all these are sciences. Like, if you have all these priorities, you actually don't have a priority. Like, there is not a priority that you have. And so, again, I mentioned this, but my thought is, on the science side, let's, let's direct the science towards space exploration, human space exploration, that's what I think we should focus on. And again, there's, there's some congressionally mandated science that we have to do that is not necessarily for space exploration. And there's other good work that we do, and I don't think we abandon that. We should, we should still partner and be helpful. But especially in tighter budget times, using every resource possible for exploration matters. And again, because I see that there's other places that can do this other work, we're the only ones that do space exploration, which is why I want to focus on it. And again, I think it's so critically important. And so that's the vision I have for our science portfolio. And again, I think that's I think that's important. And again, I think what's interesting is you have not everybody, but a vast majority, are mission driven. Mission driven. They love that they get to work at NASA, that they be part of this storied institution. They love it, and they want to do the work. And so I think it's exciting to give clear direction. And by the way, the president, he, listen- He loves to win. He he, he loves aviation, and he wants us to win to the moon and to have that kind of presidential engagement. I think. Is critically important, versus a president who doesn't care. I mean, you can disagree with his politics, you can disagree with, you can do, but if you care about your mission, you can set your politics aside and say, I that we have a president who cares like I do about accomplishing this goal that is really important. And we have that in President Trump. Gary Jordan And you're certainly trying to meet this vision in an interesting time, right? When President Trump announced you as the Acting Administrator, he used the phrase, even if for a short period of time, right? And you're coming at a very dynamic time. There's a lot of change we have. We have we're on the heels of the voluntary resignation program, which you mentioned, the DRP here at the agency. We're awaiting more change, and it's certainly a dynamic time, but you're here now. You're making the changes you're you're pushing us forward. I want to know just, if you look at your your time here in the agency, even if only for a short period of time, what do you hope your lasting impression is for the agency, even if it is just a short tenure. Sean Duffy And again, not sure how long I'll be here, but this is what I think is important. And again, setting the North Star, I think is important. But secondly, I think we have to inspire the American people. We have to get them to not be inspired by the past and what NASA has done in the past, we have to inspire them about what we're going to do in the future. And that means we have to talk about it. We have to sell it. We have to lay the vision out. Like, let's talk about where we're going and what we're doing, and like, how important this is. And it's true, it is important. And there's so many people in media that that also love what we we do, and we got to tap into that. There's podcasters who are really supportive, which, by the way, we get a few odd questions from them too, but pot some other podcasters love what we do. Let's lean in and inspire for the future. And so that is, I'm going to, I'm going to work on all the things I'm doing at NASA that we've talked about, but also I'm going to work on inspiring the American people about what the vision is, where we're going, why they should care. And it is about Artemis, it is about the Moon. It is about staying on the Moon, and it is about going to Mars. Gary Jordan Certainly, certainly appreciate it. Secretary Duffy, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you. I appreciate it. Sean Duffy 400! Thanks for having me on. So grateful. I appreciate it. Gary Jordan Hey, thanks for sticking around. I hope you learned something today. It was such a pleasure getting a chance to speak with the acting NASA Administrator. You can check out all the latest from around the agency nasa.gov, and find our full collection of episodes and all the other wonderful NASA podcasts we have at nasa.gov/podcasts. On social media we're on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, X, and Instagram. If you have any questions for us or suggestions for future episodes, email us at nasa-houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov. This episode was recorded on August 18, 2025. Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill. And our social media is managed by Kelsey Howren. Houston We Have a Podcast was created and is supervised by me, Gary Jordan. Special thanks to Stephanie Castillo, Carlos Santiago, and Bethany Stevens for helping us to plan and set up this interview. And of course, thanks again to Secretary Sean Duffy for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on, and tell us what you think of our podcast. We'll be back next week. 3… 2… 1… This is an official NASA podcast.